The District 75 Danielson Pilot: CRASH! Burn! Fizzle………..

25 Mar

Can Charlotte Danielson “cure” Down’s Syndrome?  Can she make it “go away” or render it educationally irrelevant?  What about cerebral palsy? Fetal Alcohol Syndrome?

Ms. Danielson  is the creator of the now-famous “Danielson Framework”. It is  a teacher observation/evaluation tool that is all the rage  in  those school districts  around the country that are  right now undergoing what is generously described as school “reform”.  So my admittedly loaded  question is this: Can she ( or *it*; i.e. the Framework)  enable a  16-year-old quadriplegic — with irreversible birth trauma-related organic brain damage, no spoken language capacity, and profound intellectual disability — to miraculously rise from his wheelchair and his wordlessness and lead his  classmates in a grade-level discussion of , say, Shakespeare’s break with  Renaissance literary convention in “Romeo and Juliet”?

All reasonable people agree: no. But the NYC Department of Education, particularly in the Bloomberg era,  treats  “reason” as one would  sensibly treat a contagious disease.  And, after twenty-six years on the lookout for this sort of thing, I can recognize a truckload of DOE  *stupid* from a mile away. Especially when it’s headed right at me.

So when I saw this… this thing, “The Danielson Framework”, unveiled in September of 2011 and renamed ( Why?)by the NYC DOE ,”Talent Management Pilot”, I recognized a code-blue situation immediately and made a bee-line to my union leader, President of the United Federation of Teachers, Michael Mulgrew.

I managed to corner him  after the  UFT monthly Delegate Assembly  in October. I told Mr. Mulgrew that my District 75 “Network” ( group of NYC schools) was “piloting” ( testing) the Danielson Framework as a teacher observation tool in D75.  He exclaimed, and I quote: “They’re using *Danielson* in D75 !?”  He squinted, his brow furrowed. Then  he rolled his eyes. I slapped some related paperwork into  his hand. ( He’s always in a hurry. I understand; there’s a lot to do.)

I heaved a huge, audible, sigh of relief. ( Where would we be without our body language? Confused, I guess.) Mulgrew used to teach in D75 and *instantly* saw the problem: Danielson’s work is  normed on general education teachers of general education students in general education classrooms. District 75, in contrast,  serves students with severe and profound intellectual and/or behavioral handicaps, often compounded by physical disabilities,  who are taught in specialized, *self-contained*  ( i.e. special ed only) classrooms by teachers who are trained and licensed to do  this highly specialized — and very different — type of teaching.

In short: NO gen ed students, NO gen ed classrooms; NO gen ed teachers in D75. This being the case, it seems inarguable that  mistakes were made ( a lot of them) when, last year:

1. the DOE  assigned 11 schools in District 75 to the so-called Talent Management Pilot ( DOE-speak for its version of Danielson) ;

2. the UFT agreed to go along with it;

3. no one bothered to consult the Special Ed professionals ( many with post-graduate degrees in Special Ed. and decades of experience working with the student population affected) in those 11 schools; the teachers whose professional lives were about to be turned upside down by the astoundingly *dumb* idea of test-driving  the Danielson Framework through District 75 .

Here’s the problem: Danielson doesn’t work in D75. Mulgrew knows this.  Alas, the rest of UFT … even ( and I really don’t  quite *get* this part)   the Special Ed  section of  UFT…does not seem to understand what I’m talking about. In November of 2012, more than a *year* after my ‘brief encounter” with President Mulgrew at the DA and, after a  lengthy  and complicated correspondence with the UFT VP for CurrIculum  that seems to have gone  absolutely *nowhere*,  I emailed said VP as follows:

“It is not a trivial issue. Evaluating teachers of severely  multiply-handicapped children with a rubric that is designed to evaluate teachers in general education settings with general education students is tantamount to punishing and penalizing teachers who go into this demanding , difficult and highly *specialized* type of teaching. Our union was formed in order to protect teachers from administrative malpractice… not to facilitate it. ”

The simple fact is that the vast majority District 75 kids cannot, by definition, perform to the standards  required by the Danielson Framework.  (That’s WHY they’re in District 75!)  Yet , with the “pilot” unchallenged by UFT leadership and now in its *second* year,   the pedagogy of teachers of severely and profoundly handicapped kids will again be analyzed and  rated according to Danielson’s  “spam-in-a-can” criteria.  The inescapable consequence: artificially low ratings for the aforementioned Special Ed teachers. It’s hard to explain to people  outside of the district  just how   ridiculous this  is; how *utterly* mismatched the tool is to the task;  how blatantly unfair to the specially-trained and  specially-licensed special educators who are — along with their students , of course — its  primary victims.  And, one increasingly suspects, its *targets*.

Ridiculous, you say?  It can’t be? Well, let’s look at some examples. In  Danielson’s  “Domain 3: Instruction,” the classroom teacher can earn a rating of “Highly Effective” ( the highest rating possible; it corresponds to a rating of 4 on a 4-point scale)  *only* if his/her students are observed by the evaluator ” formulat(ing) high-level questions.” Additionally, said students must “assume responsibility for the success of the discussion.”  In short, if one’s students aren’t observed doing this ( i.e. assuming “responsibility for the success of the discussion”) the teacher cannot be rated as “Highly Effective.”  These behaviors are, evidently, what Ms. Danielson expects of high school students in general education.

Now.  Perhaps we can excuse Ms. Danielson. ( And perhaps not . Her website bio says she has experience in teaching “all” levels, which is clearly not the case.) Statistically speaking, we are talking about kids that are outside the norm: 5% or less of NYC public school enrollment. It’s unlikely that Ms. Danielson understood this initially — I told her later —  but many of the youngsters in District 75 programs cannot speak. I don’t mean to say their language is “weak”. Or that they don’t speak *clearly*. I mean to say they literally “cannot speak”.  At all. 

In some cases  these non-verbal kids may be trained to push buttons on  electronic devices to communicate basic needs. “Bathroom,” for example, represented on the device by an icon or pictograph, is a basic need; as is “Hungry”. There are various picture/symbol communication  systems (TEACCH, PECS, etc.) that are used with some success with some students.  This is the kind of thing we do in special ed. ( Or should I say, “what we  *used* to do.”) We adapt and shape our instruction to meet the unique demands of each individual. And let me tell you: if you are talking about a non-verbal child, classified by the DOE as “untestable”, who is incontinent and has struggled from birth with tripelgic or quadriplegic spastic cerebral palsy, you can take the Danielson Framework and burn it. It has no relevance to the  proper education of the child I just described.

“But Ms. Danielson,” ( I have a recurring dream that I was somehow present when the Framework was conceived.) “if these children cannot *speak*, how can they , in any  real sense, ‘assume responsibility for the success of the discussion'”?

The Talent Management rubric is riddled with these glaring logical disconnects. Still in Domain 3: “Instruction”: the teacher … to be rated “highly effective”  ( 4) … must ensure that his/her students ” are cognitively engaged  in high level, grade appropriate thinking throughout the lesson.” But 17 year-olds  with measurable IQs in the 40s cannot “engage in grade-level thinking.” Students with unmeasurable IQs can’t either. And neither can students with severe autism and/or echolalia  and/or other language processing disorders. It doesn’t matter how “effective” or “ineffective” the teacher is.   To claim otherwise is to announce to the world  that one does not understand the population we are talking about.

There’s lots more. In Domain 3c, “students (must) initiate or adapt activities and projects to enhance their understanding.” Note: that’s “the *student* (must) initiate and adapt.” Not the teacher.  Educational psychologists put the ability to “initiate”in the category of “executive functioning,”  a skill-set known for decades to be a key deficiency in children with intellectual disabilities. Generally, the more severe the disability, the less able the child is to “initiate.” Is it fair, therefore,  or even logical to expect these children to perform on par with average students in their ability to “initiate”?

My Point:  The evaluation rubric doesn’t acknowledge the existence of children with severe and profound language and learning handicaps. Instead, it penalizes teachers for even *working* with this population. The developmental disabilities of the children  in D75 are NOT caused by the special education teachers who are trying to address them. Yet the “logic” of Ms. Danielson’s DOE and UFT-endorsed teacher  evaluation rubric insists that they ARE.

So given its — let’s be kind— “limitations,” how did the Danielson Framework  end up in District 75, anyway? I’ve no idea but the notion that this is a worthy eval tool for this type of teaching is so bizarre that speculation as to how it got there is both responsible and inevitable.  I initiated a short and amiable email exchange with Ms.Danielson in early 2012. She seems extraordinarily committed to her work. And anxious to defend it.  So it couldn’t have been easy for to acknowledge the following: “However, I also can see that it would be inappropriate to require teachers of profoundly handicapped students to create higher-order questions.”

“No kidding”, I muttered to no one in particular.  From my POV, I felt like like a dentist extracting  an impacted, wisdom tooth from an unanethesized 600-pound gorilla. Even this admission of the staggeringly obvious  didn’t come easy.  Some analysts ( blogosphere edu-sleuth Susan Ohanian, for instance: have pointed  to a previous collaboration between Danielson and the Gates-funded Measures of Effective Teaching… the implication being that there is Gates money behind the Danielson Framework, pushing it indiscriminately , even into places where it plainly doesn’t belong.  Of this I know not. I do know that  the Gates Foundation has poisoned forever the  public debate on public school reform  nationally by discretely  funding front groups and ‘think tanks’ that then produce “data” and “advocacy” that support Gates Foundation positions on pubic education policy.

Is something analogous happening here? It’s difficult to know. But  I  do think it’s incumbent on Ms. Danielson… given Gates’ scuzzy  history… to make plain the full  extent of her collaboration with him and be utterly clear on the question of exactly who  is paying exactly whom for exactly what.

Corporate influence aside, other disturbing questions are raised by the D75 Danielson Pilot.   The public trusts that there are responsible and knowledgable adults in charge at  NYC DOE  who  presumably SHOULD have put the kabbosh on a no-go notion like Danielson in D75 but did not, have not, and … apparently… will not. Does not the district have a Superintendent? Do not these 11 schools have a Network Leader? Do these education leaders not understand the nature  and  learning characteristics of the student population whose interests they purport to serve? Did they really read and  really understand the Danielson Frameworks before they decided to take the education of NYC’s least advantaged children out for  what amounts to a two-year joy ride? Do they really know what they’re doing?

Ms. Danielson has a vaguely  worded — and weirdly redundant ( Three paragraphs. Paragraph 3 repeats paragraph 1, nearly verbatim. BTW,should we rate that particular writing sample  1, 2, 3 or 4 ?) — official bio her on  website. She was kind enough to send me two meatier resumes on request. Likewise, Kirsten Busch Johnson, the DOE official in charge of the aforementioned Talent Management Pilot ( the Danielson Framework slightly ——and pointlessly, imo— revised by NYC DOE)  boasts a google-able online resume . Three years teaching experience right out of college. Before going to work for Microsoft, i.e. Gates. (Hey, she must be an expert.)

But what about the Superintendent ? And the Network Leader? You know, the upper-level DOE managers who are really supposed to know these D75 kids. Who are these people, really? I know their names and their faces and have met and spoken with both. Yet I can’t find an online  resume for either. I’m wondering if there’s a reason for that. How much do they really understand about this population? What is their training and education, exactly?  How many years– if any — have they spent  working in classrooms with these profoundly  impaired kids? Did they spend enough time  there to really absorb the nuances and complexities of getting these kids to learn?  Frankly, one doubts it. In any case, this taxpayer  wants to see the resumes.

Alas, we are kept in the dark.  And, while were at it,  let’s look at the building administrators: our principals  and their  assistant principals —  the bottom rung of the ed admin  ladder and consequently the paramecia, if you will, of  the now-immense corporate “reform” movement food chain.  These grim souls  do the dirty work.  Now functioning as professional nit-pickers and fault-finders,  they are in fact  ex-teachers (usually) with very limited ( almost always) hands-on experience themselves.  They nonetheless  go into  classrooms, ( in teams, if you can believe it) observe the instruction in progress and try to make the Danielson-based Talent Management Rubric sound relevant to a situation where no  objective, clear-thinking adult believes it has the slightest applicability.

One could almost feel sorry for them. It’s a fool’s errand if ever there was one.  But, by dutifully following   orders from the “big fish” in this particular  bureaucratic swamp, the small fry get to keep their  out-of-classroom jobs, along with the attendant perks.  So they  play along (or should I say “swim along”), aiding and abetting when and where they are needed. Classroom teachers, consequently,  take on a serious risk by teaching profoundly impaired  kids what they actually need to learn….as opposed to what’s in Ms. Danielson’s  Framework… and  doing so in ways that help those kids to actually *absorb* it.  Whatever her intention,  Ms.Danielson, by her own admission, has no clue as to what they need to learn. Nor how to deliver it. And her rubric reflects that. But what’s really alarming is this: neither do  the DOE “suits” who brought the Framework   into the D75 buildings.  And they’ve been involved with the D75 population for years. At this point , it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that they just don’t care.  At least not about the education of handicapped kids.

So, what do they care about then? Again, I’ve no idea. I’m neither mind-reader nor psychiatrist.  Some people don’t care about anything. Let’s leave that  “to Dr. Freud along with the rest of it!”  But instinct ( and experience)  tells me  that the Talent Management Program’s application  to D75  is  concerned less with education than it is with *defamation*. This being the case,  it becomes more of a labor/management issue ( or a legal matter) than  an educational one. As to possible motive: it’s a lot easier to fire people if you can manage to professionally  discredit them first… even on the basis of such absurd  evidence as that yielded by the use of the Danielson Framework as a teacher observation tool. And it’s easier still to create a hostile work environment falling just short of the legal standard of  “hostile work environment” by setting them up to fail.  The Framework is useful for this purpose as well.  Then you don’t have to fire them. You can just drive them away.

So… where were we?  OH! Right! Now our union leader is going to do….well…. what exactly?



17 Responses to “The District 75 Danielson Pilot: CRASH! Burn! Fizzle………..”

  1. patrickwalsh April 2, 2013 at 8:14 pm #

    Excellent article, Paul. You articulate the absurdity, idiocy and out right cruelty of our overlords with great intelligence and elegance.

    • paulvhogan April 4, 2013 at 11:34 am #


      They give me plenty of raw material. Thanks.


  2. Diana Zavala April 3, 2013 at 12:58 am #

    agreed Patrick! Excellent Paul! Additionally, not only are students non-verbal in D75 schools but they also have double diagnosis of Autism Spectrum Disorders and with the Danielson Rubric and the Common Core and the data obsession, students with Autism are not trained to work together in functional communication, it’s all teacher-directed and with Autism, one of the things students have difficulty with is ‘initiating’ questions, sharing, commenting, and theory of mind (which is understanding that others have different information). I’m sharing this!

    • paulvhogan April 4, 2013 at 11:41 am #

      Your kids’ Autism is your own fault. Stop making excuses. Just apply all 22 pages of the DFW and make sure to collect data *constantly* — all day, every day— while doing it.

  3. Amber Dawn April 7, 2013 at 9:29 pm #

    I know D75 but I don’t work there currently. I work as a speech therapist in a general ed elementary school and danielson has been used on me as well. The DOE is worse than ever. The union is okay for big issues that are widespread and as for individual issues occurring in schools it’s quite ineffective because the UFT is weakened. I know the Union is fighting the Danielson model being used for observations but that is being ignored in my school.

    • paulvhogan April 12, 2013 at 4:15 pm #

      At this point, I don’t know *where* the union is. At first they “liked” Danielson… but said ( at least Mr. Mulgrew said) it could be abused and used to railroad teachers out of the system. As a witness to — and participant in — a Danielson “pilot”, I told them it was being abused in exactly that way. They told me to send documentation. I sent them between 6,000 and 8,000 words worth of documentation.

      They are sitting on it. I’ve no idea why. You’d think they’d at least explain why they insist on tolerating the ludicrous situation that use of DFWK’s has wrought in D75.

      Yet the union says nothing. I’ve a feeling… and it’s not a good feeling… that there is more going on here than meets the eye. The Gates connection may or may not have something to do with it.

  4. susano98 April 11, 2013 at 1:12 pm #

    I applaud (loudly) this detailed and devastating critique, It is patently absurd–and tragic–to use the Danielson scheme with severely handicapped children, but I don’t think the Danielson scheme works for anybody. There may be a kernel of truth in her plan but, through the use of rubrics, it is bureaucratized into formulaic nonsense. As Paul Hogan observes, the Danielson framework becomes a labor/management issue, not a valuable teaching tool. And when you have a passel of administrators with no–or minimal– classroom experience a joke becomes a tragedy.

    • paulvhogan April 12, 2013 at 5:00 pm #

      Thanks Susan. I’ve never seen Danielson in use in a gen ed classroom. But I’ve watched many of her Danielson Group-produced videos online. They’re NOT using it in my son’s school. For this I am grateful.

      One can see this kind of choreographed, stilted eval/observation system as the logical outgrowth of the anxiety and hysteria that has spread like wildfire throughout the field… throughout the whole culture, really, whenever the topic of education is considered.

      When the organism is anxious… it tends to tighten-up. The DFWK does nothing if not reflect the culture’s “uptightness” on this issue.

      And of course the flames of that wildfire are constantly fanned by know-nothing politicians who are in turn heavily backed by corporate… ummmm… *resources*. In short, there’s money to be made. Lots. Enough to really make the rounds. It’s a “perfectly BAD storm” if you will.

      Ms. Danielson seems sincere. She’s obviously very bright. I’m sure she believes that this kind of teaching is what we have to do to “keep pace” w. the Finns, the Singaporeans, the Chinese, et. al, et. al, et al. She should take a deep breath, however. Our well-funded suburban leafy greens boast schools that seem to be doing just fine on international assessments. Yes… even *without* the Danielson Framework.

      But, more to the point, teaching and learning are supposed to be a joy. If the teachers are not having fun, neither are the students. If no one is having fun, no one is learning very much. As pedagogy, the Danielson Framework falls somewhere on the atmospheric continuum between “angst” and “misery”. Maybe about 1/2 way.

      I’ll be generous and give her a 2 ( Developing) for general ed classrooms.

      And, of course, a 1 ( Ineffective) in D75 special ed.

      And I still would like to know what that Framework is doing in D75.

  5. UA May 24, 2013 at 10:44 am #

    Great description. Makes me want to reverse my retirement and come back to teaching. NOT!
    Seriously, though, your blog is terrific. I enjoy reading every post, even as an escapee.

    • paulvhogan May 29, 2013 at 4:49 am #

      Well…someone’s got to do it. The swamp people aren’t going to drain the swamp themselves. So it’s kind of crazy to expect them to do so.
      That’s why *we’re* here, I guess.
      Thanks much.

  6. Marysa Lynn June 13, 2013 at 10:58 pm #

    What do we do now? I am a teacher in a 12:1+1 Standardized Assessment program that not only is evaluated by Danielson but also by standardized test scores…we take these jobs to make a difference and we are penalized for taking them.

    What can we do to change this? To make this relevant to more than just D75 teachers who are going to all be rated ineffective?

  7. paulvhogan June 15, 2013 at 7:59 pm #

    That’s the proverbial $67,000 Question. Or in the case of school “reform” the 67Billion $ question.

    There are mountains of money coming from Gates and innumerable other corporate sources that are pushing gimmicky “solutions” like Danielson to a problem that has yet to be defined… much less understood.

    It seems reasonable to speculate that petty bureaucrats and (alas…I’d venture to say) SOME unionists are enticed by the prospect of getting in on that gravy train. The cooperation of these people in paving the way is essential to people promoting these lucrative non-solutions.

    Which leaves people like yourself who are serious about teaching kids what they need to know in a hellish predicament. Short answer: find honest (HONEST), sympathetic people in your union with whom to collaborate. Find people in the state legislature who actually 1. understand something about education ( there are a few in NYS; not many but a FEW.) and are also un-buyable. ( These may be fewer still.)

    Groups like the Network for Public Education ( Ravitch, et al) are gathering momentum. Or seem to be. Take a look.

    This ran on Huffington Post this week:
    As the DFWK gets increasing exposure it should undergo further scrutiny. Alas… it’s all ass-backwards: in a sane system the scrutiny would come first. But where there’s this kind of $$$ involved, all bets are off.

  8. Demoralized at D-75 February 4, 2014 at 5:42 pm #

    Amen to you and to you I say Amen. I work in the largest d75 school in the city and I would love to get behind you, rally our colleagues and DO SOMETHING about this. Anyone with a quarter of a brain can see the problem here. Everyone at my school feels demoralized. Please lets organize. As far as the union goes, its like Sam Rothstien says to the gaming commissioner’s brother-in-law in the movie Casino, “Either your in on it or too stupid to know what’s going on, in either case I can’t have you work for me!” I also tried e-mailing Analia Gerard, I pleaded with her for help and she never even responded to me. I truly would like to organize something if you are interested please contact me.

  9. EWood_UDL November 17, 2014 at 4:03 pm #

    The Framework is not the issue, your leadership’s choice in pilot schools is the issue. The leadership should know the constraints of the rubric. Danielson is currently working to create a rubric this is more appropriate for the SPED environment. Those in SPED especially should know that fidelity of implementation requires a knowledge of who the target population is.

  10. ECadvocate April 4, 2016 at 11:32 pm #

    THANK YOU. Thank you for taking the words out of my mouth and supporting everything that I’ve been saying for the past few months. I recently experienced the Danielson evaluation process for the first time and it left me feeling frustrated, hopeless, and honestly, in tears. As an early childhood special education teacher for 3-year-olds with severe disabilities functioning between the adjusted ages of 9 months to 2 years – it was a heartbreaking and infuriating experience. There I was, sitting one-on-one with my “director” asking for examples of HOW to improve to (or to prove) that I AM DISTINGUISHED – and she couldn’t. Instead, I was left with her response, and I quote, “Your students just aren’t there yet.”

    “…I’m sorry. So you’re telling me that I do not display a “distinguished” level of teaching because my students are not developmentally ready to display the standardized description within the rubric? …because they are primarily nonverbal, socially unaware, and/or have not yet developed metacognition?”


    “So…I’m being penalized for working with the population that I do – despite all of my (modified) artifacts of proof?”

    PaulVHogan – you took the words out of my mouth. Penalized. I’ve never felt so defeated…and I don’t know what to do about it.

    EWood_UDL was right too. I also see it as a huge flaw of my leadership too…The lack of education, awareness, understanding, and acknowledgement of my director (who was hired under the lie that she knew and supported both preschool for all and special education). Then again, this is also an early childhood director who has talked about smoking illegal substances on several occasions, has called me out of class to her office to discuss “where we (the social committee) should drink after school,” and has had the nauseating gall to make comments about a child’s “box” during an IEP meeting when the family was discussing not having enough money to buy their daughter underwear… I digress… I know I’m not surprised with her narcissistic and ignorant position.

    Aside from that? Let’s talk about the subjectivity. My coworkers and I have compared our evaluations to better understand our ratings. Now, tell me HOW one teacher can receive a ‘Proficient’ when another can receive a ‘Distinguished’ rating for an observation that has been copied and pasted word for word? WORD. For. WORD.

    But WHO is there to PROTECT US? Everyone will say, let it go and just be happy with that fact that you know your director is, for the lack of a better term, a tool. But it is still SO early in my career – and for the simple and honest truth that I rely on the acknowledgement of my extreme efforts after working excessively day in and day out with a very physically and emotionally tolling population (that I couldn’t love more) – it feels wrong to just let this type of defamation of one’s one reputation “just go.”

    I’m currently researching and gearing up for one epic rebuttal but it also feels like my efforts are futile.

    Lost. Hopeless. And more than a little p.o.’d.

    • paulvhogan April 14, 2016 at 9:47 am #

      Thanks. Sorry to hear of the situation you describe. You are VERY far from alone, however. It’s systemic. National…. even international…in scope. A sort of perfect storm of bad ideas and social pathologies coming together in one place: public education. And, specifically , public *special* education.

      Truth is… they don’t WANT you to be an effective teacher because they don’t want people to REMAIN in teaching as a profession. Cheap-labor capitalism.( One of several aforementioned social pathologies involved.) Hire-em; work-’em fire-em. One recalls (I *THINK*; correct me if I’m wrong.) that Ms. Danielson is, first and foremost, a trained economist. She obviously, knows how to make $$. What she appears to misunderstand about how kids learn is another matter entirely. What she knows about teaching kids with handicapping conditions is well, quite obviously, less than zero.

      Alas, it doesn’t seem to matter. If I were you ( And frankly, I’m glad I’m not!) I’d try to figure out where your UNION ( if you have one) is in all this.
      If they (union brass) seem curiously unconcerned, try to figure out why that might be ; and then ally yourself with fellow educators and unionists that would like to see that situation change.

    • Carline May 8, 2016 at 11:18 pm #

      I’m in tears as I look at my ineffective 1’s. This is ridiculous and why are we quiet about this. It’s unfair and inhumane to use a rubric design for regular ed for D75 students. I don’t know who to talk to or where to turn. It’s like talking to a wall.

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